Overview: My own Classical Conversations review as I evaluate at the midyear what things are working for our family and what things are not.
After years of eclectic homeschooling, where I hand-picked every
As a bit of a spoiler, I will say on the front end that Classical Conversations has been GREAT for us in many ways, some of which I'm not able to be really succinct about; although I will give it a try. :-) But that doesn't mean I don't have some beefs with it, because I do. Read on to see what they are.
Classical Conversations Review: What's Working
I can't say enough about how much the frequent writing has been good for my kids. Neither one had much formal writing experience going into this year — I have always been afraid of teaching and grading writing, as I detail here: Homeschool High School Writing Help. But my #5 kid, who is in Challenge A, has been getting GREAT instruction about writing a five-paragraph essay from the ground up, and my #4, who is in Challenge 2, has been forced to learn it for himself by having to employ it so much. Each of them writes at least one essay a week, and sometimes two. I have seen their writing get better and better every week. I am really happy to have this difficult subject made easier by having accountability and objective judgment outside of my own.
The reading, too, has been phenomenal. Both kids are reading many great
Classical Conversations is aptly named; the kids participate in discussions A LOT. This has been really neat to see. What kid will naturally discuss Renaissance art (for example) with the neighbor kids or his church friends? But in class on community day, my kids are learning to verbalize their thoughts and to express themselves efficiently yet effectively. They are learning how to listen and then speak. They are learning how to debate, how to give speeches, and also how to keep the conversational ball rolling. This is something we do a little bit as a family anyway (have deep discussions, that is), but at CC the kids can do it with their peers.
And yes, community day is tons of fun for us all. I get to chat with other homeschool moms, which I haven't had the opportunity to do regularly for YEARS. The kids have made friends that they now spend time with outside of class. Lunchtime is a chance for socialization with kids about whom I don't worry what their influence will be on the character development of my children. Laughter, sports outside until class starts again, giggling trips to the restroom… YES.
Another benefit is that my kids are exposed to adults besides their parents. They're learning that other adults have close to the same value system as we do. They are receiving feedback from an objective source whom they hold in respect. Gotta love that.
Most of the
It is forcing us to stay on our homeschool schedule, because there is accountability to get the assignments done each week so as to be prepared to participate in class discussions. This means I might very well have a REAL summer break for the first time, like, ever!! This makes me happy. :-)
Classical Conversations Review: What's NOT Working — for us, anyway…
There's a caveat here, before I get into the nitty-gritty: CC never claims that students must follow their
With that said, I've found that we do need to make adjustments to fit our family. For instance, the sheer volume of work given can be overwhelming. Part of the reason for that is that one day each week is taken up by community day, so you only have four days left to complete all of the assigned work. In some subjects that's not a huge deal, but in math and science it can become an issue — they are subjects in which comprehending each succeeding lesson is very important. It usually means doing them on Saturday (in addition to the rest of the week), which is kind of a drag. In other subjects we've sometimes chosen to modify or omit assignments altogether — especially around the holidays, lol.
For the high school levels, (Challenge 1-4), the six assigned subjects are ones which would be considered core subjects. And six credits per year is pretty much all the credits you're gonna need. But that means there's not much room for other electives or exploration of personal interests — unless you want to add more school time to your day. My son takes guitar lessons, and I have counted that for credit in the past. In order for him to keep doing it this year, I've made the decision to not do all the subjects that CC does.
One specific beef about the
I also think CC is unrealistic when it comes to the pace of the Latin
And my other big beef is still the cost. Wow, it was hard to write that second semester check for two kids in Challenge. Tuition works out to a little more than $200/month over the course of a full calendar year. PLUS the cost of the
On the whole, though, our experience with Classical Conversations this year has been very positive. If I can figure out the money thing, we do want to re-enroll. Is it a bit pricey? Yes. But at this time in our family's life, it is a good fit. And that's worth a lot. Despite my beefs, I'll say that my Classical Conversations review is a two thumbs up! For families that can afford it, CC is a GREAT homeschool option.
Ann has written Cure the Fear of Homeschooling High School: A Step-by-Step Manual for Research and Planning, Save Your Sanity While Homeschooling High School: Practical Principles for a Firm Foundation, and recently Taming the Transcript: The Essential Guide to Creating Your Teen's Homeschool Transcript from Scratch (without overwhelm). She also founded the popular Facebook groups It's Not that Hard to Homeschool High School and It's Not Hard to Homeschool K-8, and in addition she voices the It's Not That Hard to Homeschool High School Podcast.
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Thanks for being honest and detailed in your review. “English” is my love course, and I have spent hours researching different courses because I want my children to learn it well. (as I type typo’s and grammar mistakes ugh!) I looked into CC and really liked the idea, but then saw the cost.Yikes! It is just so out of my range, however should that day come…before the kids are done school. Again, loved this article. Sharing :)
Yes, Jen, I never could have afforded CC in the earlier years when I had five kids in our homeschool — and even now, it’s a stretch, as I wrote about. But now that we’ve tried it and love it, I’m more motivated to make it happen for next year. I do feel bad that my older kids did not get to experience this. To everything there is a season… :-)
I was asked by a friend to teach a class in their CC-spin-off homeschool group. Do you have any likes, dislikes, suggestions, from the parent’s perspective, for a teacher, to make it a successful experience for the students and the teacher? Thanks!
Wow, that’s a great question! I think that depends on the age level you’ll be teaching. My kids are in 7th and 11th grade, and both of their teachers have been great. From the parent’s perspective, it has been helpful when the teachers give specific feedback about my kids’ work, telling them what is good and what needs work. As parents we know we’re biased, so an objective opinion is always helpful! :-)
Thanks for sharing your mid-year thoughts on the Challenge program. I think your pros and cons are very valid. I’m glad that you have (generally) enjoyed your year so far!
Thanks, Amy! :-)
I’ve always been intrigued by classical conversations. Do you feel it’s ever “too late” to jump into the curriculum? My oldest is entering grade 4 next year – can we pick up at around that stage or do you start from the beginning/basis of the curriculum.
We do The Story of the World which kind of has that Classical Conversations feel… although I could be wrong. I’ve heard good things – although the cost is a bit of a deterrent.
Thanks for sharing.
Yes, Jennifer, you can totally jump in at any grade. I do not know much about Foundations and Essentials (the elementary programs), but right now is the best time of year to look around for a group in your area and talk to the leadership. We just had an open house at my community, and people will be signing up for next year starting now. Get a catalog (they are online now and the director of your community will be getting hard copies soon) and peruse it to see if you like the curriculum they have. I think they even use Story of the World, so you’re already halfway there!
I will be giving TWO credits for completing Henle Latin. Anna is taking the Memoria Press online Latin course which breaks the book up into two years. She is learning and enjoying Latin so much more (she’s Challenge 1 and struggled a lot in A and B) — we started over from the beginning in Challenge 1 and I feel like we’re finally getting it right.
I appreciated reading your thoughts on CC. Glad it’s working so well for you!
Yes, I much prefer using two years to cover Henle 1. I’ll have to check into the Memoria Press course for my youngest when she gets to Challenge 1. Thanks for the comment, Mary! :-)
We used memoria press last year and switched to classical academic press this year and it has made a tremendous difference. It introduces ideas in a more logical sequence and it has much more practice activities available. The chants and videos are far more helpful, in my opinion, than memoria press. I like memoria press for some things but I do not recommend it for latin.
hello, I sit here in our 14th week of Challenge A so frustrated and in tears that I’m searching the webs to find people that are in my situation and have found non. I have a love hate for CC and we’ve been in it for four years. The pace is so fast, the Latin is crazy hard and my son could give a care about the LTOW. We can’t get past the ANI chart much less elocution and what ever else. The whole reason I joined CC was for the Challenge programs, from afar they looked and sounded awesome and the way I wished I could have been taught but now that I’m in the trenches with my unmotivated son I’m ready to throw out the towel. I’m out of sorts and patience and tears, thank you for letting me vent. I agree with your frustrations about CC.
Aw, HUGS, Andi! I know exactly how you feel, and I am going to send you an email to respond. I think I can help! Hang in there!
I’m right there with you. See my post below!
Oh my! I’m so glad I came across your review. For a moment I felt I was alone in my thoughts. You have said everything I’m thinking. Such a relief. Like you, we are entering our second semester of Challenge A and I’m in the midst of contemplating whether or not to continue. I don’t want to feel like I’m not giving CC a full chance but on the other hand the pace and volumn of work is not work I’d imagined for my 7th grader who is also an entrepreneur. She doesn’t even have time to work on her business becasue she is so overwhelm with work. And ditto on the maps. My daughter is so concerned about the drawing that she couldn’t fill in the states capitals on her blue book assessment. Again, thank you, I’m leaning towards completing the year but definitely scaled back.
P.S. I love the reading requirements however I’m not crazy about LTOW. I find it difficult to teach. I love IEW and find myself using that curriculum a lot.
Sunday, yes, scale back until it is doable for both of you. I do think you will be glad you stuck with it. Now that we’re in the middle of our SECOND year of CC (son in Ch 3 and daughter in Ch B this year), I see even more the beauty of the Challenge program. There really is a lot of neat stuff that goes on, that goes beyond just the curriculum and getting the work done. If you can focus on the big picture and make your daily decisions based on that, it really helps. As for LTOW, I wrote a post with more detail about it that may help you understand their methods a little better: The Five-Paragraph Essay — What, Why, and How for Homeschoolers. Read it and see what you think. HUGS! You can do this! :-)
My son completed ch A geography using blank maps. He knows so many states and capitals – won almost every game. We even gave him blank maps for blue book.
My 2nd son is now in chA and loves the drawing aspect – but he is not getting the capitals.
Ltow worked ok for my 1st son who is analytical. It is not working for my 2nd son who is creative.
enrolled by second son into center for lit writing and literature.
For many of your same reasons – we will not be continuing in the challenge program next year.
The heavy hand of “corporate cc” disturbs me. So much is done for the glory of cc – while sacrificing the education of the children in the program.
We’ve been in cc off and on for 9 years. All along we were told that challenge kids were independent learners. It is not true. I have bright kids – but they cannot do the curriculum alone. They need all of me. One kid in challenge was survivable. Now that we have ch a and ch b – we are drowning.
Aw, I feel bad that I’ve taken so long to answer this, and also that you’re not happy. I can bet that having both a Ch A and Ch B student is HARD. My personal understanding of the “challenge students will be independent” thing is that it’s a PROCESS. We are to be helping our kids work towards that goal, and how long that takes will vary with each child. I haven’t personally experienced the “heavy hand of corporate cc.” I mean, yes, they are a business, and I think we forget that as such they might make some decisions differently than a service organization would. Have you tried scaling back on the work? I am in the middle of doing that with my Challenge B-er. She is weeks behind in Latin — and that’s fine by me. Logic? If she gets it, great; if not, I don’t really care. The fact that she is being exposed to it is enough for me. I definitely would recommend cutting back from what the guide suggests. If your second kid can draw the maps but doesn’t know the capitals, is that really a huge issue? The question is are YOU happy with what he’s accomplishing? You can set the standard you want your child to attain, and it doesn’t have to be the same as everyone else’s. But you might have tried all that and still feel overwhelmed. I’m certainly not going to try to convince you to stay with a program you don’t see the benefits of or enjoy. Are you in my high school FB group? There are lots of gals there who could point you to other resources that might fit better with your goals. HUGS!! :-)
This is our first year with CC. My son is in Challenge A. We have also had our ups and downs with this, especially in the same areas you mentioned. The maps are especially frustrating for him, as well as the sheer volume of the Latin. My goal was to see him work more independently, but the opposite has happened. The math portion has been challenging because he feels behind since he’s not doing the same curriculum. The concept that everyone learns math different speeds is hard for him to understand.We have loved the Lost Tools of Writing, the science, rhetoric, and community day. I’m at the point of wanting to drop out, even though I like what he’s learning. Just about every day there are tears and frustration. Does anyone have some words of wisdom for me?
Aw, Lisa, I am SO SORRY I have taken so long to answer you. My January organizing series has been very time-consuming! My advice is to scale back wherever it will help. Slow down in math. Cut back Latin to only learning vocabulary. Give him black outline maps and decrease the number of things he has to label. You are still the one in charge of your child’s education, and you can adapt the curriculum however you need to make it work for your family. Yes, he won’t be in the same place as others, but that can be an ongoing discussion about not comparing ourselves with others and how each family does things differently and that it’s all ok. I am beginning to think that CC puts SO MUCH WORK in the guide to meet the needs of those with advanced kids, and then they expect the rest of us to whittle down the volume to meet our own needs. It’s definitely easier that way than for someone to try to add to the curriculum out of thin air if it wasn’t enough for their child. So slash and burn as necessary, and don’t feel guilty or “behind” about it. :-)
We moved from Classical Conversations to Wilson Hill Academy.
http://www.wilsonhillacademy.com
The teaching and pace is so much better than being in Classical Conversations! My daughter said, “She is doing less, but learning more this year and wishes she would have done Wilson Hill in 7th & 8th grade.”
I had never heard of it, so I went and took a look. Definitely seems rigorous and thorough! But I searched everywhere for pricing info and couldn’t find any without actually starting the registration process, so that was a bummer. I also feel like I would be losing my ultimate control over her studies — Wilson Hill seems much more intimidating as far as being confined to a certain structure and timeline. We are now at the mid-year point of our SECOND year of CC and have made great friends and enjoy the community. The work is still challenging, but we’ve learned to adapt where needed. Thanks for the input, though! :-)
Wilson Hill Academy was an offshoot of Veritas Press. There are other online schools who are similar. We used WHA for three years. The classes are live, meaning a teacher and several students show up at a prescribed time twice a week per 1.5 hour class, Monday/Wednesday or Tuesday/Thursday. Each student should make comments in the chat box (educational and casual, yet germane); should “get on the mic” about once per class; and “get on the webcam” occasionally. The highly-qualified teachers decide assignments and issue grades. They use Canvas for grade reporting, which is excellent. The textbooks are from public and private school publishers, although taught from a strictly Christian perspective. It is more like an online private school, than a homeschool avenue. The cost is about $630 per course, not including books; there is no registration fee.
It sounds great! BUT there are so many caveats to outsourcing your child’s education this far. My teenage boys are both very different, and they’ve each had problems with the online learning environment. Wearing pajamas to class is great, but girls might want to brush their hair before getting on camera. However, unless I’m sitting right next to him, he can shop on amazon, play games, etc during class time. None of the teachers made a regular effort to get my child to take actual notes (screenshot of ppt slide isn’t taking notes).
Because these schools are not in my state, they do not share my local school calendar. When my sons took mission trips during our local spring break, they missed quizzes, and there was very little grace from the teachers. The following year, my boys tried to do things ahead of time, but still had to miss the quizzes. Because classes were Monday -Thursday, there was only a narrow window each week when we could schedule doctor appointments. We’re from Alabama where race relations are very different from what you think it would be in Alabama. There are jokes that we can tell here in the presence of anyone, but not in his class half-full of suspicious northerners.
The teachers are NOT your usual homeschool moms looking to cut the cost of their children’s education via a co-op. They are teachers, with 80-150 students to manage in a given week. Because the cost is about half that of our local private schools, I assume enrolled families have more than a modest income. Most the teachers weren’t concerned with the cost of the books and supplies, nor was there an easy way to sell my used books to upcoming students.
Online classes provide opportunity for friendships, but these relationships are not based on the natural interactions that God designed us to have. These friendships turned out to be false and disappointing. Parents also did not have access to see what communications occurred between teacher and students and between students.
Finally, every online school (and even Classical Conversations corporate) is a business. Our local cover school, our church, and our local co-op each care about the educational and spiritual progress of my child, even when it gets messy. A business cannot devote this level of concern for a student so far away.
Wow, Emily, thanks for the input. That does sound more structured (and more expensive!) than would be best for my family. And yes, I agree with you about local community being so important for the personal relationships — CC corporate can’t do that, but the local CC community can. Heading into my third year this fall, having graduated my son, and my daughter about to start Challenge 1 — and me being a Challenge 4 Director! — I’d have to say that we are CC converts! :-) No program is perfect. We each have to find the one that works for our family. Thanks again for chiming in! :-)
I know this thread is older, but I felt the need to respond about Wilson Hill. Today is actually our one year anniversary with WH and I couldn’t disagree with the other posters comments more. In fact, our experience has been just the opposite. We are at WH bc of the teachers not in spite of them. They are phenomenal! We are oversees Army and the quality of teaching is so good and the support and camaraderie that our 3 kids have been blessed with their has us coming back next year. We have taken anywhere from 1 to 6 classes at a time. It’s different for each child and what grade they are as well as their strengths that help me make that decision. Our youngest only takes 1 right now where my middle thrives so well in the environment that he has 6. They love the classes so much that when I offered to reduce their schedules next year they all said no.The price is hefty for any private school and we are Army so our income is quite modest but they over payments over the year making it affordable. When we took a 2 week long vacation we had just the opposite experience with the teachers and that they were extremely willing to work with them for make up work as well as excited for our kids in their opportunity to travel in Europe while we are here. We do all our classes in the afternoons bc we are 6 hours ahead of EST. Just thought you might appreciate different experience. The cost thing isn’t covered on the web site but if you send them an email they will respond to you right away.
I am a CC mom however everything is going great for me. I am now deciding on next year challenge A but was searching online for a online Classical homeschool and came across Wilson Hill Academy. I wanted to know if anyone has joined this program and what were their thoughts. So I found your comment after reading all the disappointments about CC which I know there were things everyone could take away as positive experiences but it is good to hear honesty about a program. My son is 11 and I wanted to know how long you have been attending Wilson Academy, the Pros and Cons to the program, and do you see yourself completing the program through high school, and also do they have the option to transfer credits for required courses for credit toward graduation?
Just left a comment above regarding Wilson Hill. I hope you will give them a chance. It has been a great choice for our busy family stationed oversees.
Thank you Lizzie
My daughter will be graduating from Wilson Hill Academy in 2020. She did Challenge A & B. I switched her to WHA in 9th grade. She started with 3 classes in 9th grade to see if it would be a good fit (Fundamentals of Writing, The Great Conversations 1+4 & Physics 1). My daughter has enthusiastically taken 5 classes every year since. (The Great Conversations classes are worth 2.5 credit – 1 history, 1 literature & .5 theology).
My son will be in 7th grade next year. He has been taking online writing classes since 4th grade when we quit CC. Next year, he will be doing The Great Conversations 1 with WHA and Pre-Algebra, Writing & Rhetoric 4, and Latin 1 with Schole Academy. He will probably transition to all WHA classes by 9th grade mixed with a few we do at a co-op.
WHA has an end of the year gathering called LINK for all their families at Estes Park at the end of May. There is a field day, awards banquet, dance, graduation and plenty of time for socializing. We went for the first time in 2019. It was so much fun for the kids to meet their classmates and teachers in person. It also made a big impression on me as students praised & thanked their teachers.
If you can only take one WHA class a year I’d suggest The Great Conversations classes. Logic 1 & 2 followed by Rhetoric 1 & 2 with senior thesis would be my other suggestions. These classes are very influencial. They really help students that are willing to study, understand the world, literature & people using the Bible as the standard.
How is the pricing at WHA? Is it really around $600 per course? That seems really expensive :/
The pros of WHA online classes are the quality of instruction, live classes, educational & spiritual concern of teachers, accredited classes, preparation for college.
The cons of WHA are following their calendar, giving up some control.
Classes at WHA are alecarte. You can transfer in academic high school courses. My daughter transferred in Algebra 1, Geometry, Logic 1, PE, & Fine Arts credits. You need an average of 3 classes a year in grades 9-12 to graduate.
My daughter is very self-motivated and likes the challenge of the classes. I monitored her in 9th grade, but she has been totally independent since. I check her grades weekly, but she seldom asks for help on assignments. She has a 4.54 GPA.
My son just finished 6th grade and his first classes at WHA (LA2 & Math 6). He felt very grown up and did well, but I keep a close eye on him during class. This fall in 7th grade he will take The Great Conversations 1. It will be a challenge, but he is excited to take it after meeting the teacher at LINK. He will also be taking Writing & Rhetoric 4, Latin 1 & Pre-Algebra at Schole Academy. He started the W&R series with Schole in 4th grade and he really likes it, so he will continue that this year. I chose Pre-Algebra at Schole Academy because it meets 3 times a week instead of 2 which I thought would be better for him. Schole Academy & WHA use the same Latin 1 curriculum, however, the Schole Academy class time was better for us.
Here is a link for WHA graduation reguirements. https://www.wilsonhillacademy.com/recommended-courses-of-study/graduation-requirements/
Hi Ann! I am confused about the price. I have talked to a couple of people and looked on the CC website and been told it is about $350 per year. Here you say about $200/month. Are there hidden costs that CC doesn’t include in the yearly tuition? I have heard a few times that it is “unaffordable” but I feel that $350 per year is pretty reasonable. Am I missing something? Thanks!
I’m talking about the Challenge program for middle- and high-school students, which is a much higher price than the one for elementary students. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear! :-)
There’s a study guide for Defeating Darwinism. It’s a great companion for the parents to help review with the students. It’s called Tips for Teens on Intelligent Design. Here is the link: https://www.amazon.com/Tips-Teens-Intelligent-Design-Defeating/dp/1468160532
I hope that helps!
Thanks, Cindy!
Greetings Ann. I enjoyed your review and was particularly interested in the Latin information as I teach that subject. I thought I would chime in and say that I award two full high school foreign language credits to my students upon the completion of Henle’s First Year Latin text. They receive a third credit after working through Henle’s Second Year Latin, and several of my former students have gone on to test out of one or two semesters of college-level Latin when entering university.
It takes great time and effort to work through that FYL text; I truly believe the students are deserving of those two credits. :)
YES! I agree completely. Thanks for chiming in!
My son will be doing Henle 1 in both Challenge A and B and then reviewing it in Challenge 1. We’ve been working in Henle all year to prepare him for Challenge A next year- and really I suggest the Memoria Press Teachers Manuel in conjunction with Latin for Dummies to give the best information for proper instruction.
Yes, that is the way CC has them do it — which is too fast, in my opinion. I’m glad you’re getting started ahead of time. Just be prepared for the fire hose! :-)
Hi. I have two children finishing up year two of song school Latin. What is the next appropriate cirriculum for continuing Latin? (Age 8&10)
I have never used Song School Latin, but I am using First Form Latin (Memoria Press) with my 5th grader daughter. It is the first in the course series, and the series is second in the Latin scope and sequence from the company. See more information on the Memoria Press website. Hope this helps!
Good recommendation! Thanks!
I actually don’t know the answer to this question, because we never did Latin in elementary. Sorry I can’t be more help!
What do you so for math with CC?
Hi Jennifer, CC usually mandates using Saxon for the Challenge years. I’m not a huge fan of it for Algebra 1 or Geometry, so we used Jacobs for those. You can see more about our math sequence here: https://www.notthathardtohomeschool.com/our-homeschool-math-curriculum-sequence/. Thanks for stopping by!
Has anyone been a part of a CC community and been enrolled in Wilson Hill?
Some context: Daughter has been in CC for going to be 5 years. This will be her last year in Foundations (she has completed 4 years now) and Essentials (she has completed 2 years now). Looking at signing her up for Language arts, History and Latin through WH. (showing $2,500?!)
I don’t want her to be overwhelmed, but I don’t want her to miss out on friendships either.
Just some advise would be great! Thank you!
$2500 for the entire school year, or for just the term??
Pricing changes per year and by campus, depending on fees. I’d check with a local community to see what the actual tuition is in your area.